Hey, everyone, I'm David Chalian, CNN's political director. And welcome to the CNN Political Briefing. On Thursday, President Biden gave a much anticipated press conference. It was at the conclusion of the three day NATO summit, and he made a forceful defense for his continued candidacy.

Now.the future American policy is up to the American people. This is much more than a political question. It's more than that. It's far too important. It's about the world we live in for decades to come.

But Democrats are divided on whether President Joe Biden should remain their nominee. Booting a president from the race, at this point in the campaign cycle, it's unheard of. And it's ignited a state of panic within the party. Here to give us the latest on Biden's status in the race is CNN political commentator Karen Finney. She was senior spokesperson and senior adviser to Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. She's also a former communications director at the Democratic National Committee. And she joins us now to explain how we got here and how the party moves forward from here. Karen, thank you so much for being here.

David, it's great to be with you.

As I was thinking about who I wanted to speak to in this consequential week in American politics and specifically Democratic Party politics, you came to mind because of all of your vast experience and expertise, not just having worked at the Democratic National Committee and can speak to the process by which a nominee could change, but also because you've worked in embattled White Houses and as part of, campaigns that have experienced moments of sort of, blotting out the sun kind of controversies and how campaigns move through all of that. And so you just seemed like the perfect person to chat with. And so I just wanted to start with your sense of where President Biden finds himself in this moment. We're recording this conversation on Thursday morning, so before his NATO press conference. But where does he find himself on This morning, two weeks after that debate performance in Atlanta, in his standing in the Democratic Party?

Well, I think we have to admit that he must find himself, to some degree, embattled. He knows that there are people within the Democratic caucus who are now more actively and publicly calling for him to step down from the nomination. At the same time, one of the things we know about him and we know about politicians, right, is that when you are in it, it can be a bubble of its own making, right? You are looking at data that is telling you you can win. And for example, I think one of the things I'm sure they're looking at is, you know, just a Washington Post poll out today that shows the race pretty much even and that which, by.

The way, doesn't necessarily show that he can win, given the Electoral college that the national popular vote he's tied for.

But that but that shows there's an opportunity, right. And a belief that Donald Trump is wildly unpopular. Granted, they're both they both have been unpopular. But again, you can make the argument that says, okay, if I had a terrible debate, then why isn't my opponent so much farther? Why have they not been able to capitalize on it? And the other place where I think they find themselves, depending upon who they're listening to, is a concern, frankly, and anxiety within the Democratic Party. People are afraid of the possibility of a second Trump term. At the same time, there are those who are worried that Biden can't win, but there are those who are worried about what happens if he steps down. And as you know it, it's a whole process. Some of the members, for example, who last week were calling for him to step down. They were doing it in a way that seemed like they didn't even understand all the rules. So again, I think he finds himself in just a moment. He never could and none of us could imagine. But one of the things we know about President Biden, and I think this is important to remember, he has this belief in himself, and it's fair to say he has done it again and again where he has gotten knocked down and he has gotten back up and he has fought his way through. And so he probably also finds himself in a moment where he's thinking, I can do it again. And yet, the question being asked, I think very fairly he probably they probably think not so fairly can can you should you.

'Right. So two things. One, I agree with you that the Biden team will point to that top line result in the Washington Post ABC News Ipsos poll out today, showing an unchanged race pre post-debate and a tied national popular vote, of a race. There are probably some data points inside that poll that they're not going to tout. Such as yeah, two thirds of Americans think he should step away from this candidacy. 56%. A majority of Democrats in the poll say he should step away from this kind of see. That is not elites. That is not the donor class and members of Congress that Joe Biden wants to portray are the only people asking him to step down and that the actual voters are are with him. That's not the case. According to this poll, 56% of Democrats, a majority, say he should step down. So it's not just the elites, right?

Well, but again, you can look at that a couple different ways. Fair. It's not just elites. And yet at the same time again, and we've seen this throughout this year, which has been so fascinating to me. At the same time, where you may have seen these numbers, where people think that either he's too old or he's but they he still gets 46% that say they would vote for him. And so that disconnect I think is is is I don't think anybody really understands what's going on in the mind of Americans who are. Holding that cognitive dissonance, holding those two truths in their minds.

What we don't know, of course, is and again, in a little bit in this conversation, we'll get into the process and the messiness of potentially changing the candidate. But what we don't know is, would somebody else also have that locked in 46 or 47% just due to negative partizanship? We see the vast majority of Biden's voters, and this has been for a year now, are voting for him to vote against Donald Trump more than they are voting for him? And might not that be a similar sentiment, perhaps adding a few more who are voting for a new, younger, energetic candidate should one emerge at the top of the ticket? And is that does that put the party in a better position against this, what the party describes as an existential threat of a second Trump term?

It's absolutely true. People are getting themselves a little bit excited about that possibility, right, of some energy. Again, when we've had voters telling us all year, we don't want this match up, we think they're both too old. We really don't want Trump. Absolutely. There is some. And, you know, let's be honest to older white men in a moment when our country is changed dramatically, changing dramatically. But among demographics, which is part of what Trump is running against, by the way. So that's a risk too, right? There are those who say, well, can we take that risk? You know, is the country ready for a change? That's another sort of, again, factor that is, from the conversations I've had cycling through people's minds. But I just want it to this elites question. There is one other piece I think we need to mention, and they they've talked about it. I think it's fair 14 million people did turn out in primaries and vote for Biden, and he does have nearly 4000 delegates. Those are regular folks. Those are ordinary. The elites, remember, of our party are this unpledged delegates. They don't get to vote till the second round.

One thing about that here, and I wasn't gonna get to this, but my reading.

Of know we love this math nerd nerdy.

My reading of the rules of the DNC is not that they don't get to vote for a second round, that if a candidate doesn't have a majority of the delegates, correct. If, as Joe Biden does have a majority of pledged delegates rolling into the convention, super delegates do get to vote in the first round because their votes are not determinative. They don't get to vote until the second round. If the scenario was that their votes would actually be determinative to the outcome, they're not in this case, because he has a majority of the delegates.

Correct. With the idea being and this change after 2016, it was a change that the Bernie Sanders. So are you, superdelegates talk to Bernie Sanders if you don't like the rules. But, yes. And but the point is that is intentional, that the pledged delegates, the regular folks, the people who ran in their own communities to become delegates have a bigger say. And so they are party activists.

I guess we shouldn't portray them as representative of Democrat Democratic voters across the country. They're a particular type. I take your point. They're not the elites. They're not members of Congress. But these pledged delegates are diehard partisans and Biden loyalists, right? Because of the way that you become a pledged delegate to the convention.

It's true. But they're also many of them, the people. They're the people who knock on doors for mayors races and city council races and do the work in between presidential elections as well. And I say this with love. Many of the, some of them are the ones with the big dazzled, you know, jackets and hats and what have you. So. No, but but you're right. So again, I think the challenge here is the other thing that's happening later today. We know that some of the key figures from the Biden campaign, Jen O'Malley Dillon, Steve Ricchetti and Mike Downing are headed to the Hill to present some data to members of Congress to try to assuage their concerns. We also so we don't yet know what that data looks like. I hope they make it public because I think it would go a long way.

But Karen, where's that been for two weeks since this debate performance? I mean, I know they put out some internal polls, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about where has the Biden campaign in the last two weeks been publicly making the impassioned case that they have a viable path to 270 electoral votes? I have not seen that public speaking name.

I don't disagree. I will have to stipulate to those facts as a matter. Since the debate, a number of of factors, it's an important question. And for someone like me who also is, you know, my work is in communications and I'm a political strategist. You know, many were asking the weekend after the debate, where was the energy, where was the plan, where was the data, where were the, you know, we wanted to see it was not until, frankly, Monday, right where we started to see the plan of doing an interview and looking towards NATO.

And the more aggressive. Pushback. The letter to the House Democrats and Senate Democrats from the act.

You know, I don't know what the answer to that is why that was. And I think myself all of us would have liked to see that. And that's a I'll tell you what I think is important about that in this analysis. That's an analysis not just of the president, but of his campaign and his campaign's ability to something you just mentioned in the opening, the ability to react in the moment when it is crisis time, when you are in the bunker, when the knives are out, how do you put together a plan and push back and do it, you know, with all of your integrity? We saw it coming a little later than one would have expected. And so I think that's part of the calculation and the evaluation and frankly, part of what is making people anxious.

We're going to be right back with a lot more with CNN political commentator Karen Finney in just a moment. Welcome back. We're here with CNN political commentator Karen Finney, talking about the current state of President Joe Biden's presidential campaign, and if he is going to remain atop the Democratic ticket. Karen, one thing you said earlier in the podcast that I do want to ask you about, you said nobody could have imagined what we saw out of Atlanta two weeks ago. Is that true? Or his closest aides and family and the people that spent time with them the most? Did they see something that they couldn't have imagined, or did they see something they were aware of, could happen and were desperately trying to avoid?

So I can't wait till the books are written, because I sure hope not. I surely hope that they did not believe that he would go out and conduct that kind of a debate. That would be malpractice to have sent him out there to do that if he was. I know you're tired. You have a cold. No, no, no you don't. You protect your candidate, you take the hit. And frankly, that's one of the other things I think we were a little late to see is the team itself. I mean, he was taking so much of the hits for the first couple of days. You know, as someone who has had to, you know, why do they call us flacks? Right? Because we tell it's a fly. You know, the flak jacket because we take the a lot of the hits as we've seen Kareem doing, you know, from the podium. So I hope not. I certainly hope that they believed maybe he wouldn't be able to recreate what we saw at state of the Union, but that he would be able to go out there and again, at least put forward his message, his theory of the case about where the country is and where he wants to take it.

As we sit here two weeks after the debate, and again before we see this press conference tonight that he's going to be doing at NATO, before we see his next interview with Lester Holt at NBC news scheduled for Monday. I'm just curious where you assess this is right now. Do you think he's going to be the nominee all the way through November, or do you think it's more of a likelihood that he's going to be changed out for someone else?

So I think it's.

And I'm not I yeah, I'm not asking for a real prediction. I just want to get your sense of where you think the party sits right now.

I think the party is very, as has been reported, very divided. I think as we've seen, he is under incredible scrutiny. I think it's near impossible that at this press conference he's going to it's not going to be a home run. It's not going to right? If he came to me, I'm thinking I we were talking I was talking baseball metaphors. Get on base, you know, get get on base, have a just a good performance. Call that a win and try to have a less defensive because I was one of the things with the Stephanopoulos interview and the call into Morning Joe, it just felt very defensive. I think he's got to acknowledge that people have concerns and then be able to say, but here's why I'm still the guy. Not just because I'm going to work harder, but because I have the right vision. I mean, it's got to be more than I'm going to work harder. And because I think we all believe that he is working as hard as he can. That's not the question, right?

The question is, is it enough?

Is it an. Exactly. And so I'm not sure that the press conference, you know, they're sort of creating these moments to sort of keep buying some time. I certainly think the goal is to try to get to the Republican convention next week, because that's the other thing that's coming. And, and let that project 2025 and the Republicans go back to being front and center as a way to remind people, you know, the alternative, not the Almighty.

Okay. So let's talk about not the alternative you're talking about there, but the alternative to top the Democratic ticket. Let me ask this, because I think I've been asking our team of reporters when they asked Democrats, Should Biden stay or go? We have to ask the immediate follow up question, which is if he goes, should there be some kind of an open process, or should this be an immediate anointment of Kamala Harris, the vice president, to become the nominee? Because I think there's a divide among Democrats at that. And it's not a concern necessarily about Harris and how she could perform as the nominee, as much as it is a concern that Democratic voters, given now what would be an extremely truncated, period of time here before the Democratic Convention that they wouldn't have time to buy in if there's not some kind of process to this? And yet, on the other hand, there would be so much backlash, I would imagine, if the first ever woman and woman of color to serve as vice president is somehow made to apply for the job when she already has the job to step in for him if. So tell me where you see the party on that and and where you see Kamala Harris fitting into this equation right now for people.

'So obviously with the caveat this is completely hypothetical. A couple of things. I mean, being the vice president, literally your job is to be able to step in. And one of the things I think we would have to say to Democrats is Joe Biden picked her in 2020 because he believes she's capable of doing the job. So we have to believe, and let's be clear, in fundraising in the primaries, it was the Biden-Harris ticket, right? That that and she has been out there campaigning, doing her job as vice president. At the same time, I hear you in terms of can you reopen the process? I think that would be very messy and could take us away from keeping our eyes on the prize. Because the other thing about if you have anyone other than Harris, what's that person's platform where positions are they? So you reopen some things and again, even in the polling, right on the issues. People agree with President Biden and Vice President Harris. They agree with a lot of the policies, right? Even though they may have some that may be unhappy. You know, we should note that today inflation numbers are down. So I think.

I don't think that's going to get as much of that.

Joe.

It's not Joe Biden's predicament, but it's a totally fair point to make.

'I'm happy about it myself personally. Look, here's what I think has to happen knowing the rules. And look, we're in an uncharted territory to some degree, even with the rules. I mean, some of the masters of the rules are kind of pulling their hair out. I think you have to create a process through which it's not just an anointment, but it is clear that, again, Democrats voted, the delegates voted, the party comes, B comes together, you know, from all factions and says, this is the person we are behind her. That one thing that I am saying to Democrats, whether it's Joe Biden or Kamala Harris or whomever, then you've got to change your mindset and focus on winning. We have to stop the hand-wringing and the nervousness. Half the job of winning is believing that you can.

Well, and that's and that is what is causing this moment, is that so many in the party don't believe that's right, that Biden can win. That is exactly what is bringing us to this moment. I have two last questions for you. One off of what I think is the biggest news development of the week in this story, which is I just want to know what you thought when you heard Nancy Pelosi, the former speaker of the House, come out this week and say that Joe Biden has a decision to make because I think if you're Joe Biden, he thinks he's already announced what his decision was that he's staying in. Yes. Why is why does Nancy Pelosi not believe that? That's the final word.

It felt to me like that was a way to try to create a bridge. And because it was couched in all of the we love you, we respect you, and and then and rightfully so, he deserves tremendous credit for what he's been able to accomplish. But it felt like she was trying to soften the blow from, you know, some of the Obama folks and some of the other folks who are much harsher about just get him out to say, maybe just think about this, right. It was one of those guys. It felt like one of those sort of where maybe just rethink this and look, here's something, David, that I think is really important.

But that's coming from somebody whose voice, I imagine is going to have a lot of weight with Joe Biden in this.

But also not just with Joe Biden, because the other factor in this, and I hope I don't get myself in trouble professionally by saying this, it's his team to the team has to be able to that same team that you asked me about, who prepped him and saw what happened on that stage. They have to they have to help make the decision. Right? It's his family. It's his friends. Right. It's not going to be the New York Times. It's not going to be George Clooney. It's going to be a conversation with those closest to him. And so I think I think what's important, what people were missing is Nancy Pelosi's voice matters to those folks as well.

And then, my last question here for you, Karen, is if indeed Kamala Harris were to become the nominee, you say the party would come around her in this moment.

Would we have to wait for unity?

And and I, I totally understand that. Do you see Chicago and the convention itself happening flawlessly, or is this going to be like a very problematic convention? Which begs my I don't understand. And you're a former communications director of the DNC, and maybe you can explain this. Obviously, the party is the apparatus of the white House when you have the white House, right, for any incumbent president. Right. Why has the DNC not already called a virtual roll call and make him officially the nominee to shut this down?

Well, they have a process as well. So that. That vote is meant to happen, I believe August 5th, they're now talking about. And there are a number of technical things that have to happen before that. You know, there's, I don't know, paper that goes out that comes back. I mean, there's, you know, I was like, well, Kenya Fedex said, what's going on anyway? But so there's some other, you know, rules wise things that have to happen. But look, I think the hope is that we don't want to have a mess, right? That whatever the process is that that is decided whether that process is getting behind Joe Biden and trying to have a unified convention and bringing people back into the fold, whether that is a convention where you are, where we are trying to get folks behind someone else. I mean, the goal is and you and I have talked about this as a communications person, I don't want to see us have a messy convention and then have to turn around, which will be at the end of August or early September, and be able and say to the American people, you can trust us to keep you safe, to continue to lower your costs. And we have got to mean people are seeing this already in the day that the more time we are talking about, well, he won't he Donald Trump is getting a pass. Project 2025 is getting a pass. And we and we know from the data we have to be talking about that. We have to be making sure that more people know about it, because when they do, the more they know they're terrified.

Yeah. It seems like this election has been that whichever of these unpopular candidates is in the spotlight and sucking up all the oxygen, they're doing damage that doesn't serve their candidacy all that well, given the way that the country thinks about both of these men. And you are right that in obviously, in these last two weeks, the spotlight has been entirely on Joe Biden.

And, you know, at the end of the day, it's interesting. You know, we have throughout my career, we've said and, you know, my first election was the 1992 campaign. And yes, Jim Carville was on it. That's the last one he has ever done. But that's another story. We've always said this is the most important election of our lifetimes. This actually might be. And as someone who, as you know, was part of the 2016 campaign where we lost to Donald Trump, and it was and then to see Joe Biden win, to see the party in this moment where we've we know that the threat is even greater. I mean, I just I feel like I'm holding my breath a little bit. Do we and I think we're all trying to figure out how can we help the party get to a good decision, get to and, and then be able to execute on a plan to win and to help America get there?

It's just what is unthinkable is that that moment is happening for you. As a Democrat, with just under four months to go until Election Day, that is a very precarious moment for the party to be in, in this collective waiting to exhale.

Yes.

Karen Finney, thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it.

Thanks, David.

'That's it for this week's edition of the CNN Political Briefing. And we want to hear from you. Is there a question you'd like answered about this election cycle? Is there a guest you really want to hear from? Give us a call at (301)?842-8338, or send us an email at CNN Political Briefing at gmail.com. And you might just be featured on a future episode of the podcast. So don't forget to tell us your name, where you're from, how we can reach you, and if you give us permission to use the recording on the podcast. CNN Political Briefing is a production of CNN audio. This episode was produced by Grace Walker. Our senior producer is Haley Thomas Dan. Zula is our technical director, and Steve Licht II is executive producer of CNN. Audio support from Alex Mansory, Robert Mathers, John Deere, Nora Laney Steinhart, James Andrus, Nicole Petru and Lisa Nomura. And special thanks to Katie Hinman. We'll be back on Friday, July 19th with a new edition of CNN Political Briefing. Thanks so much for listening.